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nims
Skale Clueless


Joined: 27 Apr 2003
Posts: 6

Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 12:16 am    Post subject:

rawhead wrote:

Make this open source project, so new versions come faster.

I think this should realy be a great solution. Just look what happend to modplug when it went opensource with mpt. IMHO this is just what skale needs. I am hoping there are thoughts for this.
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sYnCHAoZ
Skale Lover


Joined: 09 May 2003
Posts: 136
Location: Denmark

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 3:56 pm    Post subject:

dBlues wrote:
I really can't wait for the release!!!! \o/

Some thoughts of my own about Skale development:
About the features and such; how many buggy features does Skale have at the moment? Quite alot, starting from VSTi hosting and serving as client, mixer eqs work only randomly, disk writer writes some VSTi's out of tune, SF2 compatibility etc.
Then again, it's amazingly solid and versatile software if you don't use some of the buggy features. It's a really great software, and professional also. With higher sampling rates (96kHz) the sound is very pleasing.


But this is kinda the whole problem. All of those features are immensly important if you're working at a serious level of music production. Hell, even if you're not putting all that much into it, those features are still important. I mean seriously - "mixer eqs work only randomly" - that alone makes this software utterly useless to any music developer with just a tad of intergrity. I personally abandoned Skale due to this exact reason. For all that I ever did, Skale refused to render my mixer eq settings on all snare drum samples, and I make alot of metal music that relies heavily on good drum equalization. A bug like that cannot be allowed to exist, it degrades the software to a point where it is no longer a music development tool. Music development is in essence all about sound, and having a broken mixer that cannot portray the correct sound that the user wants, is not music software. If something as important as this had been hotfixed shortly after release, then fine, that would have helped the programs integrity greatly. But alas, as we've come to know, nothing ever gets fixed in under a year.

I'm sorry man, there is no excuse. It's a good effort Bak, it really is, and for what you've come up with all things considered, you've done an amazing job. But in the end, you're just playing around. You're not actually accomplishing anything. Putting out an audio software that cannot even handle the most important element of music creation - mixing and equalization - and just sitting back and doing nothing about it... is weak. I supported this project one. Untill I realized it's just one mans empty dream of carrying a legacy too great for his shoulders to bear. You should have enlisted more people to help, put out regular updates and the MUCH needed fixes. Instead you sat back and got high on your own ego, proclaiming that this is your project and yours alone. Sorry man, you need to wake up and smell the flowers dude. Skale Tracker is just a fancied up version of FT2 with watered-down features that don't function properly - and by the looks of it - never will.
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Reezon
Skale Newbie


Joined: 06 May 2003
Posts: 32
Location: Fin

Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 6:54 pm    Post subject:

sYnCHAoZ:

Funny. I think Skale is almost there. Only few funtions don't work if you compare it to the original FT2, which is quite impressive. All I want this software to do is replace the long dead FT2, which only works @ dos. You talk about mixer - WHO CARES. It's only an added bonus, which I never by the way even use. I'm sure all the people using FT2 never even look at the mixer and if they do, they very soon close it. I actually wish there was way to start-up Skale without the mixer and vst-subsystem eating up resources, since I never use them. I use the TRACKER, which this software in the end really is.

If you ever used FT2, you would not whine Skale being broken. Only thing not fully functioning is the sample editor and few things are working different than they did at FT2. That's it. I'm very satisfied with the software and I'm hoping to see the release with sample editor and keyjazz fixed any time soon. I don't need anything else - these are the things separating this product from original FT2 at this very moment.
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vereiser
Skale Moderator


Joined: 04 Nov 2004
Posts: 314
Location: Berlin, Germany

Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 4:45 pm    Post subject:

But the last release was nearly 2 years ago.

Personally I learned a lot with Sk@le, but it seems it's time for me to change to a professional tracker like Renoise, cause updates are made time by time and I know, my ideas will find their way into the program.
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alien5ive
Skale Fanatic


Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Posts: 392
Location: uk-germany

Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:56 pm    Post subject:

@vereiser:
if u wanna use RENOISE---> i got a full crk´d version.

on my way of searching for new soundprogramms i changed back to CUE BASE and at least 2 REASON.

will b back when SKALE v1.0 is out. or dies?

no more RECORD RELEASES with SKALE are possible b.cause we reached the edge.

the freedom of makin music is not given yet in SKALE :(

BTW:
@REEZON [what u do with skale isnt were it headed! if u like that unfinished skaleverion be happy. u also can use FT2 with DOSBOX.
i think its doin the same. some ppl wanna use SKALE for professional making music. and thatz the point we reached since more than 1 year weres no way to feeling free creating professional music.--> mind is free-hands are bound.
if u ever wanna make professional music for a production on cd audio or vinyl u also need the mixer and mastering section.]

"but unfinished things are useless."

who knows who cares

later...
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Manwe
Skale Lover


Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 137
Location: Russia

Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 8:32 am    Post subject:

st3vie, what about small Christmass present for us all?
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sYnCHAoZ
Skale Lover


Joined: 09 May 2003
Posts: 136
Location: Denmark

Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 9:45 pm    Post subject:

Reezon wrote:
sYnCHAoZ:

Funny. I think Skale is almost there. Only few funtions don't work if you compare it to the original FT2, which is quite impressive. All I want this software to do is replace the long dead FT2, which only works @ dos. You talk about mixer - WHO CARES. It's only an added bonus, which I never by the way even use. I'm sure all the people using FT2 never even look at the mixer and if they do, they very soon close it. I actually wish there was way to start-up Skale without the mixer and vst-subsystem eating up resources, since I never use them. I use the TRACKER, which this software in the end really is.

If you ever used FT2, you would not whine Skale being broken. Only thing not fully functioning is the sample editor and few things are working different than they did at FT2. That's it. I'm very satisfied with the software and I'm hoping to see the release with sample editor and keyjazz fixed any time soon. I don't need anything else - these are the things separating this product from original FT2 at this very moment.


I did use FT2. For many years. But that was an era of tracking and home music making where demands for sound and mastering really wasn't an issue. But times change my friend, software evolves and the music with it. My days of making chipmusic and old-skool tracker songs with custom echo and reverb effects are over. The time for real sound engineering is the level I'm at now, and with Skale being as buggy as it is, I can't really use it for anything besides assing about making chiptunes and tracks that sound like something from the 80'ies. Skale COULD have the potential to rise above that if only it functioned correctly as a sound engineering tool. But it doesn't, and nothing is done about it.

Yes Skale is impressive. It's the dream version of FT2. But like FT2, it is no longer a tool for serious music making. With programs like Reason, Renoise, Nuendo and so forth, an old-school tracker like Skale and FT2 can't keep up anymore (unless, as I said, you wish to retain the "old school" feel, in which case Skale is an awesome tool!). Skale HAS the potential, but development is grotesquely slow.

And I can promise you this...
Quote:
You talk about mixer - WHO CARES. It's only an added bonus

... you should care. When the day comes where you are done making chips and nostalgic tracker music, you will realize that a good mixer is EVERYTHING in proper sound engineering and production.

Skale would have been epic 10 years ago.

Is Bak even here anymore? It's been over a year now since the last version...
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Reezon
Skale Newbie


Joined: 06 May 2003
Posts: 32
Location: Fin

Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 10:47 pm    Post subject:

Interesting. If you have proper sampleset, I see no reason why you can't create anything that sounds good. I suppose with limited resources FT2/Skale have, there indeed is DEMAND for creativity.

Odd, but to me Renoises realtime rendering sounds like shit. With Skale what you hear is what you get. Still, when it comes down to MASTERING, none of the three you mentioned really stands out as a MASTERING tool - neither does Skale. Reason doesn't even stand out as an arranging tool, if you ask me

What FT2/Skale presents to me is COMPOSING and ARRANGING. With my samples I can replicate most of the current (and past) generations musicstyles, without (your) fear of sounding like child of 80's. When it comes down to MASTERING, there are few good softwares for that, but I don't want to waste time trying to sound something, when I'm composing. Guess that's the difference between you and me; you are audio engineering, I'm composing. By the time I'm done composing, you are still trying to figure out between the difference of two 500€ plug-ins, just like I was.

Skale/FT2 is TOOL for composers. You're telling me it's for chiptunes, which very clearly states how much you believe into your own skills and the capabilities of the software. I suppose you never even tried to compose anything but chiptunes with tracker?

Thanks to Skale I'm back to COMPOSING.
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sYnCHAoZ
Skale Lover


Joined: 09 May 2003
Posts: 136
Location: Denmark

Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:29 pm    Post subject:

Have you even seen Renoise? It's a tracker that looks and feels ALMOST like FT2. The ONLY difference is the values of some of the effects. But functionality is 100% the same. There's is zero difference between tracking and composing in renoise or ft2 or skale, only some of the commands differs.

I pre-master in Renoise and post-master afterwards in Cubase. Skale can't pre-master because the mixer is broken.

Composing is fine, you can make cool tunes with that alone, and I've made plenty in my times. But good composing AND mastering will elevate it to a higher level. You can't even discuss that.

The problem with Skale in this regard is that the mixer only functions randomly, and some times not at all. If it DID, Skale would be much more viable in that regard as well. But it isn't, and Bak takes more than a year to fix anything, and if it still doesn't work, we have to wait yet ANOTHER year in hopes of a new fix. Wtf?
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Reezon
Skale Newbie


Joined: 06 May 2003
Posts: 32
Location: Fin

Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 8:19 pm    Post subject:

I've seen Renoise, I've used it. The latest beta has the mixer which Skale beta has had for years. The GUI does look like tracker, but it's way off from FT2. It doesn't look like FT2, it doesn't function like FT2. It's Renoise - not FT2. Btw, the functionality of the highly praised Renoise just went down, go ahead and give it a try. Whole GUI LAGS when switching between mixer, envelopes, etc..who can use shit like that, is no longer my problem.

Please, tell me how do you pre-master? What are you doing within the other tracker, you can't do at Logic or Cubase? My only real complaint with Skales upgraded part is the lack of few filters, HP being one of them. That's the kind of basic edit/manipulation I'm expecting to do with hardwaresampler. You might use the eq to do the same, but I'd think bandpass does the trick way better than any eq..

..since the software is not made for mastering but composing, why would I even try to talk about mastering? I don't think any credible person tries to master while they are composing/arranging, that comes after they've done composing. You can waste time trying right away sound like the other 10 000 000 other people using the VSTs you are using, but I don't see the point. The fact trackers require samples is the reason trackerscene has no uniform sound, but universum of people with their own sound. What you call mastering sounds me an attempt to sound the way the whole world sounds - or what you think it wants you to sound

Like I already said, I don't use the mixer. I don't see the point - I have the filters, envelopes and mastering softwares. You seem to be stuck on this minor issue, that has nothing to do with actual composing or functionality of the software. You THINK mixer makes tracker?

Think again.

Like I said in the other thread:

"I do understand YOUR needs, but not everyone wants bells and whistles. I just want the basic structure to work the way FT2 worked. I know Baktery will provide. If not today, tomorrow. If not tomorrow, some day. I'm waiting for that day and instead of bitching and whining, I wish to encourage him with his work. It makes me sad to see so many people almost angry at him, when in fact he has provided us with this nearly perfect software without any personal needs. If he had kept it by himself, would you like that better?

Baktery deserves little bit more respect and little bit less whining (no offence). Whatever it takes him to finnish the job he started, let him have it. The day is coming"

Amen?
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sYnCHAoZ
Skale Lover


Joined: 09 May 2003
Posts: 136
Location: Denmark

Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 10:49 pm    Post subject:

All I see is you trying to say that I'm not a composer. Visit my website and have a listen. Most of it is actually done in Skale. And the switch from Skale to Renoise, in the sense of composing and tracking, was really minor, because they are so alike. Take a screenshot of skale or FT2 and compare it to one of Renoise. They are very alike, and I think you only claim them not to be due to stubbornness and lack of an open mind :p

And my Renoise runs perfectly on my system. You can't bodge a software because your computer doesn't run it properly (for whatever reason).

Quote:
The latest beta has the mixer which Skale beta has had for years.
But unlike the one Skale has, the one in Renoise actually works. All the time.

And regarding pre-mastering:
I do alot of equalization and "mixing" within the track, because I don't export each channel to wav, and end of with 50 different wav files in Cubase. So instead I level it all off within Renoise, and then export the pre-mastered singular .wav into Cubase and make the finishing touches and recordings therein. Something that fails in Skale because the mixer only works randomly and often doesn't apply my changes to some of the samples.

Quote:
You can waste time trying right away sound like the other 10 000 000 other people using the VSTs you are using, but I don't see the point.
Now you're just rambling. VST effects can be molded and spice up a sample in many ways. They aren't static pre-defined patches you slap onto a sound. How you use them is how you bring them uniqueness. Exactly like samples. What you're basicly also saying then, is that whateveer music you make is just like the 10.000.000 other people out there using the same samples as you? I've made plenty of music without any VST's, even in Skale which does support them. But the fact is that things like echo and reverb are any day better with a real VST effect, instead of manual tracker effect tricks, and it shows in the final product. You can any day hear if it's real echo or just the same instrument being played at progressively lower volumes like in the old FT2 days.

Quote:
The fact trackers require samples is the reason trackerscene has no uniform sound, but universum of people with their own sound.
Yes, I totally agree with you here. But I don't use Reason. I use Renoise. Renoise is a tracker EXACTLY like Skale and FT2 is. So... what's your point?

Quote:
Like I already said, I don't use the mixer. I don't see the point - I have the filters, envelopes and mastering softwares. You seem to be stuck on this minor issue, that has nothing to do with actual composing or functionality of the software. You THINK mixer makes tracker?

I like doing those things manually with a functional EQ and mixer. Bandpasses are just pre-defined EQ settings you know. Settings that I prefer to set myself instead of letting some other software handle. That's why I find it such a big deal. And you do know that "mastering software" can be done just as good manually... with EQ and a mixer? All my mastering is done with those two things - inside Renoise and afterwards inside Cubase. Not a single mastering VST or software used. THAT'S why I need a functional mixer.

But no, I totally agree with you again, a mixer doesn't make a tracker. It's just a nice luxury is all. If you prefer to use your tracker for composing only, and then do all the rest afterwards with other software, cool. I prefer a tracker where I can do all of these things manually.

Look. I used to LOVE Skale. I've used it for... 3 or 4 years now, and it was the best thing that happened to me when I found it. I've supported it for much longer than you have, but the progress is too slow, and for the things that are important for me in tracking the type of music I make, I need a functional mixer, which Skale does not have and never has had. When will it come? Will it work properly in the next release? What if it doesn't, must we then wait another 1½ years?

I've supported Bak and he knows. But there is a limit as to how far such support can go, when it is narily ever rewarded.

Skale is a fine tracker, in my eyes the best right after Renoise. It beats all the rest out there, even in its current beta state. Of corse I'm whining about it, and why shouldn't I? I didn't want to switch to Renoise. I did it because Skale never recieved the needed fixes and updates, and that is a very good and fair ground for whining.
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Reezon
Skale Newbie


Joined: 06 May 2003
Posts: 32
Location: Fin

Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 11:23 pm    Post subject:

Level? Just like with FT2 you have volumecontrol. With FT2 I knew at least two ways to control the level of samples volume, three if envelope is counted one. Especially if you like doing things manually, you should know this too.

I'm saying you are not a composer? No, I'm saying you have never really used FT2. Good prove of this is the fact you lack the basic knowledge how to control volume (master, channel, instrument) and THAT is the reason you want mixer.

Check how bandpass works on Skale. You have obviously NEVER even tried it, since you don't know how it works. EQ usually works the way you said, through pre-defined bands - bandpass/notch/ANY FILTER works from the band you want it to work and you can even use ENVELOPE to create very wierd and twisted sounds. Give it a try and very soon you will realize, you too want HP filter too - NOT A MIXER.

Being egoistic, you keep on telling YOURSELF you have been supporting this software longer than me. Please, stop - you can't know that. In fact, since you don't even know how the current software works, I see no reason why even bother going any further than this. You just want something added to the software, BECAUSE you don't even know how to use the current features.

No offence
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sYnCHAoZ
Skale Lover


Joined: 09 May 2003
Posts: 136
Location: Denmark

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:11 am    Post subject:

Alright sorry about the support comment, I was under the impression that you had joined the Skale scene fairly recently, but I notice now that you've been a forum member since may 6th 2003, my bad. But you claiming to know what I do and do not know isn't exactly helping anything either

I'll also admit that I'm no expert on advanced Skale/FT2 features, but if the bandpass you're talking about in Skale is the LFP and Bandpass filters in Instr.Edit, then yes I know how they work. But I find them annoying to use in Skale partly due to the lack of numeric values and general functionality of the GUI. It's tedious and not very 'overview friendly'.

And like I've stated countless times: I don't want things added. I want things fixed. I don't want them fixed once every 12 or 14 months, that's beyond acceptable for a public project, imo. That's my personal problem; I use (and WANT to use) some of those particular features.

I need a functional EQ. Skale does not have that. And that's pretty much the extent of it. I could mention many other things that I find much more intuitive in Renoise, but there's no point in playing that game. If the Skale project perseveres and some day reaches the same level, then I'll almost certainly go back. But with that happening as a 1-man thing that is updated once a year, I find it hard to imagine ever happening. Unfortunately

And,... no offense taken
A solid discussion is healthy.
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alien5ive
Skale Fanatic


Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Posts: 392
Location: uk-germany

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 10:35 am    Post subject:

this thread is busting

nice discussion.

BAK should say something ...

looking forward 2 SKALE v1.0
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Reezon
Skale Newbie


Joined: 06 May 2003
Posts: 32
Location: Fin

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:02 am    Post subject:

That's my point and your problem; you are not willing to use them advanced features, since you find using them annoying. It's like saying you like the car with automatic gear, but not with manual. Being "annoying" is part of the FT2 nature, you simply need to fiddle with settings and effects through the codes manually instead of for example using the mixer, which is simply nothing but an eyecandyextension of the FT2/Skale engine - totally useless to harcode trackers like me.

In some degree I agree with the EQ issue, though I really do find filters more effective and attractive while tampering with unwanted or wanted frequencies - that's the way it's been done with samplers forever, why not with Skale too. But I don't agree the mixer being needed to have EQ or volumecontrol; the EQ can be done through the filter section, like it's been done in Renoise for years. Still, I can't justify using EQ where I can use filter, so I suppose it's difference between the working method we two have. Numeric values? I only need them, if Bak adds up code to manually use the filters on the fly, other than that, I prefer using my ears to make things sound right, not my eyes.

Like I said, to me this software is very close of "being there", all I need is the sample editor to work and few FT2 features, which simply make my life easier. I don't need things to be implemented, unless they really are crusial and good upgrades, like filters are. Mixer is just like I said, nothing but an eyecandyextension over the engine and if you can't use it without the eyecandy, I don't know what else to say..

..maybe Baktery should simply rip the mixer and vst support off and build the damn thing without them. We would get "FT2 for WINDOWS" very soon with full functionality and nobody would be disturbed, since Skale only covered the functionality of FT2, nothing more, nothing less. That's what most of the whiners are unable to see - the functionality is already almost there - only REALLY lacking sample editor.

Now you get MY point?
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