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Why is Skale not Free Software?
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Should Skale Tracker be Free??
Yes
 87%  [ 29 ]
No
 12%  [ 4 ]
Total Votes : 33

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bennyp
Skale Clueless


Joined: 24 Jan 2005
Posts: 4

Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 10:41 am    Post subject: Why is Skale not Free Software?

< - this isn't a flame - >

Why is Skale not free software under GPL or some such license? It seems to me a bit of a waste that a program of this quality does not benefit from interaction of the community and user freedom.

< - not a flame - >
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Tranceparent
Skale Moderator


Joined: 12 Nov 2002
Posts: 514
Location: NL

Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 3:55 pm    Post subject:

Skale is free, aren't you confused with 'open source'?
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skagen
Skale Jedi


Joined: 12 Nov 2002
Posts: 508
Location: Norway

Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 4:20 pm    Post subject:

I agree with Tranceparent here; Skale is free. The coder of this software doesn't even want donations (as what I understood of what he said earlier in a old thread)
But Skale is not open source, which is something totally different.
The why of this I don't know.
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CoolBeat
Skale Clueless


Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 10

Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 6:40 pm    Post subject:

Was Fastracker II free?

I think its great to see, and all the best with your progress with it. It's made me get into music tracking.
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toxl
Skale User


Joined: 12 May 2003
Posts: 73
Location: The Dark Woods, Bavaria

Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:04 pm    Post subject:

Sure Skale is free, "open source" is really something different I read somewhere that Skale might be made open source once a version 1.0 was out. I guess the reason for this would be that a first version should be ready before "everyone with a C compiler puts his 2 cents in" and I'd agree. Anyway I think Baktery could need some help with coding, or someone with more spare time. Maybe the code could be split into "modules" and people could work on that, separately. I could probably make a few enhancements for the linux version, eg. make the MIDI stuff work, if I find the time. Don't know if baktery would want that, at all.
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bennyp
Skale Clueless


Joined: 24 Jan 2005
Posts: 4

Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 9:10 pm    Post subject:

Free Software is different from software that is distributed free of charge. Please see this website http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-for-freedom.html

The term Open-Source is similar to Free Software, but I choose not to use the term Open-Source, as it represents a primarily fiscal reason to promote software which guarantees the user certain freedoms. See the abose website for more information.

So in short, I am talking about what is called Open Source, and not gratis software, but I choose to use the term Free Software because it is primarily concerned with freedom.
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toxl
Skale User


Joined: 12 May 2003
Posts: 73
Location: The Dark Woods, Bavaria

Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 10:05 pm    Post subject:

Right, I was talking of "free" as in "beer" (download and use the program free of charge). Whether GPL software is more "free" (as in "freedom") than e. g. public domain sw is debatable. Anyway, I would welcome if Skale would become open-source if it would then be more actively developed. If. But I don't know, there are already some "free" (gpl'ed) trackers out there, but none of them work for me. The GPL seems to work better for some kinds of programs than for others. Maybe it's an ego thing: "I own that code", which drives good tracker programmers. And I think that's ok.
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KermEd
Skale Newbie


Joined: 21 Jul 2004
Posts: 48

Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 9:30 am    Post subject:

Its simple.

Just think about your question for a second. Skale is free, as in you do not pay for its use. Skales "code" is not free for you to use, because you didn't develop it.

Programming is an art form. If you dis-agree, you have not spent days labouring over code for months and months. Waking up in the middle of the night, and realising a faster way to do everything.

Copying someones source code, is like the equivilent of stealings someone's music.

They wrote it, they keep it.
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ProgZmax
Skale Clueless


Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Posts: 7

Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 9:54 pm    Post subject:

I'm not a big fan of open-sores (chuckle). In many cases I find that alot of amateur programmer wannabes just get in there and mess things up. As a programmer myself, I agree that alot of effort goes into any kind of complex program, such as a tracker. I know this because I had to write an xm player for a game engine awhile back, and the documentation on the XM format is anything but robust . If the Skale team wants to go open-source that's their perogative, but if they don't want to that's okay too. They've done a fine job so far, and if they're a little slow with the updates you can chalk that up to it costing you nothing but time to wait. It is free, afterall.
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yfkar
Skale Clueless


Joined: 10 Apr 2005
Posts: 1

Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 10:26 pm    Post subject:

KermEd wrote:
Its simple.

Just think about your question for a second. Skale is free, as in you do not pay for its use. Skales "code" is not free for you to use, because you didn't develop it.

Programming is an art form. If you dis-agree, you have not spent days labouring over code for months and months. Waking up in the middle of the night, and realising a faster way to do everything.

Copying someones source code, is like the equivilent of stealings someone's music.

They wrote it, they keep it.


I think that this isn't about people using/copying Skale code for their own purposes. It's more about the possibility to contribute to the code.

So it's more like becoming a part of the orchestra than stealing their music.

ps. I know the "waking up in the middle of the night"-feeling. "Why didn't I think of that earlier? Now I have to do it all over again."
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Roeland
Skale Clueless


Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 2
Location: NL

Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 2:59 pm    Post subject:

Hi, I'm new around here .

First of all, great software!

Always tricky to start a discussion on freeing code (free as in freedom), certainly if it's about a program that's available on multiple platforms and people of different kinds of systems hang around.

Skale is free as in beer, a bit in the tracker tradition, I'd say. Making code free as in freedom pays back in many was, for example, people can contribute code to the software, which helps the application grow and mature. Selection of which patches to accept, stays with the project maintainer(s), so bad code should't be a problem. Freeing code, means it will always be free as in freedom. There are many licenses to choose from, but GPL and BSD licenses are the most famous free software licenses.

All nice and well, but of course freeing code (or not) is always up to the project team and leader(s). If they think free software has no advantages over closed source, then that's their descision. Can't force it, and forcing it is bad.

So, my opinion on this topic is: it would be great and wonderful if Skale became free as in freedom, but only if the author(s) choose(s) to. They don't, so it will be free as in beer. And I guess if someone can't live with that, then there are many great other projects that are free as in freedom, go ahead and help them flourish.

My opinion is that part of the freedom we have is the freedom to choose using and creating closed source software.

Well, I've already said this, but I think Skale is a great piece of software. Running fine on my Debian system. It'd be nice if there'd be a *BSD binary available in the future.

-Roeland
(Free software kinda guy)
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KermEd
Skale Newbie


Joined: 21 Jul 2004
Posts: 48

Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 4:42 am    Post subject:

ill take a free beer anytime
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oxygenfad
Skale Newbie


Joined: 15 Jan 2004
Posts: 37

Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 7:47 pm    Post subject:

I use skale only because it is free. If I had to pay for it I wouldn't even bother, I would go right back to FT2.

I love the fact that skale is freeware. It makes me want to use it more!
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pdorman
Skale Clueless


Joined: 11 Jul 2005
Posts: 1

Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 10:32 pm    Post subject:

I think one of the major issues around free (as in beer) software is that users are vulnerable to bait-and-switch, where the author decides that the user base of people committed to using the program is sufficient to make some money out of it. They've invested hundreds of hours learning to use the software, have hundreds of tunes locked up in the software's proprietory format (not sure if that is the case with skale), and probably wouldn't mind parting with a few bucks to keep using it, or to get the next versions, or to get "support" (whatever that means).

There are many examples of bait-and-switch out there. Making software truly free means that users can have the latest updates without being forced to pay. The developers are of course able to make money from support, selling CDs (perhaps with many presets and demos), manuals, etc.

I for one will *never* invest any serious time into something with an uncertain future. I don't care if it's free as in beer. Hell, I wouldn't be interested if the developers paid *me* to use it! )

Furthermore, the source code could be a valuable resource for other software developers, and of course essential for those wishing to tinker with the internals. Sharing what you create with others is what makes free/open source software so great. I suggest to those in the Window$ world that they go and read some of the stuff at gnu.org, particularly Stallman's manifesto ( http://www.gnu.org/gnu/manifesto.html).

If you'd like to see how an open source music application is developed, have a look at the Hydrogen or Ardour projects. Both of these projects have small, dedicated programming teams that have worked very well together to produce some great software. I think you'll find the quality and development pace just fine.

On that tip, the Skale developers should realise that the open source community is developing new applications all the time. It's only a matter of time before Skale is made irrelevant by some super-great open source tracker monster. Free up your software, let others do the work of porting it to other operating systems, fixing bugs, extending features. Allow yourselves to benefit from not only free software programmers contributing to your project, but from the millions of lines of high-quality innovative libraries and source out there published under an open source licence.[/b]
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toxl
Skale User


Joined: 12 May 2003
Posts: 73
Location: The Dark Woods, Bavaria

Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:09 pm    Post subject:

Well, I think I'd even pay 10 Euros for a tracker for Linux which actually works (unlike Skale), and has been updated in the last 10 years or so. When was FT2 released? 1992? Well, you can't even get a GPL equivalent for that, today.

Quote:
Free up your software, let others do the work of porting it to other operating systems, fixing bugs, extending features. Allow yourselves to benefit from not only free software programmers contributing to your project, but from the millions of lines of high-quality innovative libraries and source out there published under an open source licence


Ok, GPL software does tend to use a different library for each feature... Developers seem to think, "why re-invent the wheel? The XYZ library already does what I want. More or less.. Let's just use that." Of course library developers think the same, so in the end, if you want to install anything you have to install everything... And hope that some version change next month doesn't break the whole chain.


Quote:
It's only a matter of time before Skale is made irrelevant by some super-great open source tracker monster.


My dream. I don't expect that to happen in the next century though...

cheers,
J.
(writing from a plain Linux computer, with no Wind$ws installed, except Wine if that counts...)
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