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[v] Groove shuffle
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vereiser
Skale Moderator


Joined: 04 Nov 2004
Posts: 314
Location: Berlin, Germany

Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:30 pm    Post subject: [v] Groove shuffle

Midi has a big advantage. The instrument notes are not set to a static raster. It's because of the inexactness when you record a midi track by playing a keyboard or other midi control unit. Cubase or Nuendo has the same raster like ft/Skale (1/4, 1/16, 1/32 .....), but they are not static. A note can set a little bit before or little behind the actual raster position. It makes e.g. grooves really grooving.

But I love to make sequence created music. I saw in Renoise ( good thing but there is too much Skale already knows and Renoise does not have Skale will come up to a sequencing monster, when it is done, and other sequencers will have a big big problem) a possibility to make that quantise thing working.
If I want that grooving option in Skale too, I have to write speed and bmp changings in track editor. And than copying it to every pattern and usage of to mod channels. It can take a long time, unil the groove really flows. It is a mathematic thing. Possible. But it is difficult.

I think 4 shuffle fader would be enough.

Somebody understand what I want to say, and can add ideas.


Last edited by vereiser on Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:54 am; edited 3 times in total
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skagen
Skale Jedi


Joined: 12 Nov 2002
Posts: 508
Location: Norway

Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 3:50 am    Post subject:

The most common way of making shuffle is this:

Code:

01 --- -- F06
02 --- -- ---
03 --- -- F03
04 --- -- ---
05 --- -- F06
06 --- -- ---
07 --- -- F03


That would produce a hard shuffle where the delay is twice as long as the short one (also producing a tremolo-thingie) but softer shuffles works too, i.e F06/F04, F07/F05 etc

When I begin making shuffle i write the first 4 speed parameters, copy/pase while using PgDown I believe and then i got a pattern full of speed parameters in a second. Futher copy/paste over other patterns is quick. All in all I might spend 1-2 minutes applying shuffle through a song.
The bpm stay untouched throughout the song usally.

I think this is a faster technique than drawing the speed and bpm changes in the track editor (must take ages!)
But off course, a shuffle knob is even faster than the copy/paste technique

Cheers!
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Zarko
Guest





Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:44 am    Post subject:

If you guys fix a "shuffle/swing" button, please simulate tha akai mpc type of swing
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Chief
Guest





Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:54 pm    Post subject: YES

this is exACTLY what I need.


for real.

If skale would have this option right now, I wouldnt even use the MPC3000 sequencer that often anymore.

I love the tracker way of making music but these simple limitations force me to use other programs like Fruity Loops which sounds worse but has the "shift" option on seperate notes.

(the shuffle thing only works on the whole pattern and sometimes I just want a late snare, but the hat has to be on time, for example)
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Irrelevant
Skale Newbie


Joined: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 49
Location: Camden County, New Jersey, US of A

Posted: Mon May 16, 2005 3:04 pm    Post subject: Re: groove quantise

vereiser wrote:
Midi has a big advantage. The instrument notes are not set to a static raster. It's because of the inexactness when you record a midi track by playing a keyboard or other midi control unit. Cubase or Nuendo has the same raster like ft/Skale (1/4, 1/16, 1/32 .....), but they are not static. A note can set a little bit before or little behind the actual raster position. It makes e.g. grooves really grooving.

But I love to make sequence created music. I saw in Renoise ( good thing but there is too much Skale already knows and Renoise does not have Skale will come up to a sequencing monster, when it is done, and other sequencers will have a big big problem) a possibility to make that quantise thing working.
If I want that grooving option in Skale too, I have to write speed and bmp changings in track editor. And than copying it to every pattern and usage of to mod channels. It can take a long time, unil the groove really flows. It is a mathematic thing. Possible. But it is difficult.

I think 4 shuffle fader would be enough.

Somebody understand what I want to say, and can add ideas.



4 shuffle fader? huh?

that threw me


I usually try to work on speed 6 or 4, and use the EDx effect for notes,
this way the whole entire song isn't shuffled, just the instrument/sample

(how'd that other dude make that cool table -.-)

like, for triplets, i'd do something i think like,

00 - c-5 -- 000
01 - c-5 -- ED2
02 - c-5 -- ED4
03 - --- -- 000
04 - c-5 -- 000
05 - c-5 -- ED2
06 - c-5 -- ED4
07 - --- -- 000
08 - c-5 -- 000

....spd 6...

and then the other instruments could still do a 4/4 time and play 1/4 and 1/16th notes w/out screwing up the entire song.

Chief wrote:


(the shuffle thing only works on the whole pattern and sometimes I just want a late snare, but the hat has to be on time, for example)


http://kobnet.net/~ichirou/XM/IrrelevantShuffleExample.skm

I threw that together rather quickly, to try to explain what I mean about
how one part of a song can be in shuffle, and another part not.

the synth is in triplets, the ride is in 8th notes, and the drums are kinda in a shuffle, and the bass is in a groove, i guess...

all using the EDx command and a speed of 6.

(i guess i could've bothered tuning the synth and the bass wav... (sorry))



Is what you're suggesting making a fader that'll automatically shuffle, like drum machines do?


This may be tricky, with the ticks and the math. especially with the
principle of the speed determining how many ticks there are between
rows...


EDx delays the sample being triggered a certain number of ticks.

so, ED4 in a speed of 3, would i think either do nothing, or play the
sample/midi signal as if you wrote the trigger comman on the next
row.

(since 3 means 3 ticks per row)
length of the ticks are determined by beats per minute,
which when i think too hard about it really impresses me how much math is being done by the machine, and makes me think twice before throwing
my computer out the window when it crashes cuz i made it do something
that was probably impossible or too much to think about

What always threw me was wondering what determines a beat.
I timed it once, and i think 6 spd makes every fourth row land
on a beat... or was it 4...


I don't know if 'any 'of this helps you, but I hope it does.
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oxygenfad
Skale Newbie


Joined: 15 Jan 2004
Posts: 37

Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 5:56 pm    Post subject:

ALA Renoise hehehe
_________________
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Guest






Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 8:31 pm    Post subject:

NO
im familiair with the EDx codes.


It's just too limited for me


I need ED01 throught ED96

i want total precision on note shift
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Irrelevant
Skale Newbie


Joined: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 49
Location: Camden County, New Jersey, US of A

Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 9:29 am    Post subject:

Anonymous wrote:
NO
im familiair with the EDx codes.


It's just too limited for me


I need ED01 throught ED96

i want total precision on note shift


I think I kind of understand what you mean a bit more clearly.
That would require a whole new method, other than the trigger
delay, which relies on that tick timing.

(as I understand it.. I may be wrong)

unfortunately, i think all the letters and numbers have been
used in the 3 digit effects column, and the volume column effects
(which are presently still absent from skale) would only allow for
one numeric digit, so the possibility of precision would be on a
scale of 0 to f, or perhaps 0 to z, which is still much less than
96.

I 'think' there was one letter in the 3 digit effects column that was
no longer used, and considered obsolete, (something from amiga
days? I don't remember)

So, a shuffle thing like that would require a much less elegant
way of manipulating the sound, which would probably take up more
processor speed, but I don't believe would be impossible, and today's
computers should be able to handle it. (or perhaps another digit in the
effects column, that might actually be very useful, (or confusing, i dunno))

I think...
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Chief
Guest





Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 1:37 pm    Post subject: it would be so simple

Listen man.

you could use the letter X
whatever.
you could use a "?" of a "*" for all I care.
the thing is : what makes music live is the imperfections.

I am not interested in an overall shuffle.
I am also not interested in 3 types of ED.
that's much too limited.

I want 96 ppqn precision.
It shouldn't be that hard to implement.
you could for example put a delay "Xnn" on a note.
a note shift like I use all the time in fruityloops.

with nn = BPM/60/96 , rounded.
.
dammit I should've finished computer science.

skagen!!! you must understand me man, being a jedi and all....please make my day....
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Irrelevant
Skale Newbie


Joined: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 49
Location: Camden County, New Jersey, US of A

Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 8:13 pm    Post subject: Re: it would be so simple

Chief wrote:
Listen man.

you could use the letter X
whatever.
you could use a "?" of a "*" for all I care.
the thing is : what makes music live is the imperfections.

I am not interested in an overall shuffle.
I am also not interested in 3 types of ED.
that's much too limited.

I want 96 ppqn precision.
It shouldn't be that hard to implement.
you could for example put a delay "Xnn" on a note.
a note shift like I use all the time in fruityloops.



you mean for recording live signal?

like, if you play something, how the program will 'record' your playing/signals given to it through a midi (or other(?)) keyboard?

(i thought you meant 'mimicry' of a live shuffle ^_^; i'm sorry)


..I guess that's why people often use loops...
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vereiser
Skale Moderator


Joined: 04 Nov 2004
Posts: 314
Location: Berlin, Germany

Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 11:39 pm    Post subject:

The groove shuffle is the default setting for a song. It can variated in each pattern seperately. I understand the groove shuffle as a preset. Other methods are needed to specify a note's playing.

I need three things at last to create a relastic groove feeling (, I think):
1a) default groove shuffle editor for a song (smooth) (preset of standard grooves) / b) use F command (Speed and Bpm) (hard) --> old way
2. Sample Offset (implemented)
3. Other Tracker/Midi Commandos
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Sendar
Skale Clueless


Joined: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 13

Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:50 pm    Post subject:

I just replied this text in a different topic, but I guess this is the spot where it belongs:


I use the EDx command for slightly moving (and thereby adding swing to) my drum sounds, but as it only goes from 1 to 4, it's not as accurate as I want it to be. A lot of times I'm forced to copy my drum sample and add a little bit of silence to the beginning, just to move it to the right spot. In some cases I end up with six or seven versions of the same kick or snare, which gets pretty confusing.

It would be a big improvement if the EDx numbers at least went from 0 to 9 (or F, or Z), with the imaginary '10' being the next row. From 00 to 96, as Chief suggests, would be even better.
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gdl
Guest





Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 12:00 am    Post subject:

Sendar wrote:
From 00 to 96, as Chief suggests, would be even better.


Why to 96? Is there any special reason or are you trying to mimic another sequencer? Wouldn't it be better to range from 00% to 99% of the row duration?
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Sendar
Skale Clueless


Joined: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 13

Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 2:28 pm    Post subject:

To tell you the truth, I was just trying to mimic Chief.
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gdl
Guest





Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 5:44 pm    Post subject:

Mmm... And I suppose Chief tries to mimic the MPC3000.
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